God *does* feel angry. I am glad about that. Anger signals where there is perceived injustice or boundary violation. Anger says "It shouldnt be this way!" and energises us to take corrective action. Yes, He is angry, for His righteousness' sake. And yet, He is not controlled by His anger, which is fair. (Doesnt Gaza make you angry? The arrogance of the powerful? The damage hate filled hearts are and do?) Yet He is love. Love is antiseptic even as it draws us in. "Our God is a consuming fire." He does absorb and transform; from death to life or to dust and ashes. And even so, all praises to the One who formed us and brought us to life, from dust in the first place! He is GOOD!
Maybe GOD’s punishment is to bring resistant people to repentance, but the willing get healed, restored…. I take this from Leviticus, (thé life is in the blood), Hebrews 10:26-39; (punishment for going on willfully sinning, being independent from GOD, so the person will hopefully repent, turn toward GOD, even from trying to fix oneself), and Romans 5, which explains GOD’s wrath and Jesus took this “for all men”. 5:1-2, 6-12…18
Going through the OT seems to be a progressive unveiling of GOD’s character.
Covering nakedness, sin, shame with bloodshedGenesis 3:21
Grace, and patience,hoping for repentance : Mark to protect Cain Genesis 4
Lamech misunderstanding: Aggressive overreaction, first time we see 70x7.
The Flood: God punishing or cleansing, because evil out of control; Genesis 6-8
Death penalty: So fear of God, sinning; Genesis 9; James 1:12-21; 2:10
Law: So sin confessed, sin and guilt, shame covered; sickness seen, cleansed; death for demonic practices (until Christ’s continual atonement…, grace and truth to set us free; John 1:14-17, 29
Law for those not responding….Romans 3:26; & 13:1-10
Reformed ideas about atonement were an improvement over the ideas that had devolved in the Catholic Church over centuries. Yet they did not resolve all of that devolution, nor do those ideas translate very well to contemporary humans with our contemporary languages and views of things.
We were told that we were free from lingering shame, and fear of divine condemnation by God's just payment for our sins. It was said, a just God demanded payment for sin, and that payment was made by God. This is actually not incorrect, but it is easily confusing. We ask, so, does God actually love us enough to forgive us, or not?
The more accurate and simpler way to express what divine atonement is is this. Whenever anyone forgives another they must sacrifice something to do so. If I stole $1000, dollars from you and spent it all, and you chose to forgive me, you would be sacrificing $1000 dollars to forgive me, to restore relationship with me. I would have to actually want to have a relationship with you for this forgiveness to mean anything. If I simply wanted to avoid your anger, but did not really care at all about you or having a good relationship with you, that gesture of forgiveness would be effectively cancelled out by me because the forgiveness was meant to restore relationship and I did not want that relationship.
The suffering of Jesus on the cross is the pain God feels when His creation fails to fully express who God is. Jesus, death was not a case of Jesus was willing to suffer, but God wasn't. Jesus was God showing us the price He has always been willing to pay to forgive us. God always loved us enough to forgive us. The progressive evolution of the imagery of atonement sacrifices from the lamb killed to cover Adam and Eve's new sense of nakedness, to Jesus' death on the cross all represent the fact that God completely loves us and was and is willing to forgive us completely.
God did not need Jesus to die on the cross in order to be able to forgive us. Jesus died on the cross to show us just how willing He is to forgive us. The reformers got that part slightly wrong. Of course, in a sense if the person forgiving is not really willing to make the sacrifice required to forgive another's debt, then their forgiveness is hollow. But God was not waiting for Jesus to die to be willing to forgive us. For God so loved the world that Gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have eternal life.
We really have needed the reformed theology updated badly. Thanks for being willing to do that for Jesus body, Paul
We also see later, David received grace, because he repented, got grace instead of law. We all die unless God takes some.
David refused to kill Saul, thé Lord’s anointed, and was given grace, as the Lord’s anointed, but still in those days killed GOD’s enemies, to preserve à faithful community. Without Christ’s atonement people are still susceptible to demons. Did Jesus make equal justice, patience in justice, outside war, appropriate?
God *does* feel angry. I am glad about that. Anger signals where there is perceived injustice or boundary violation. Anger says "It shouldnt be this way!" and energises us to take corrective action. Yes, He is angry, for His righteousness' sake. And yet, He is not controlled by His anger, which is fair. (Doesnt Gaza make you angry? The arrogance of the powerful? The damage hate filled hearts are and do?) Yet He is love. Love is antiseptic even as it draws us in. "Our God is a consuming fire." He does absorb and transform; from death to life or to dust and ashes. And even so, all praises to the One who formed us and brought us to life, from dust in the first place! He is GOOD!
Amen
I am with you in this understanding of sacrifice and atonement.Very enlightening.
Maybe it’s both.
Maybe GOD’s punishment is to bring resistant people to repentance, but the willing get healed, restored…. I take this from Leviticus, (thé life is in the blood), Hebrews 10:26-39; (punishment for going on willfully sinning, being independent from GOD, so the person will hopefully repent, turn toward GOD, even from trying to fix oneself), and Romans 5, which explains GOD’s wrath and Jesus took this “for all men”. 5:1-2, 6-12…18
Going through the OT seems to be a progressive unveiling of GOD’s character.
Covering nakedness, sin, shame with bloodshedGenesis 3:21
Grace, and patience,hoping for repentance : Mark to protect Cain Genesis 4
Lamech misunderstanding: Aggressive overreaction, first time we see 70x7.
The Flood: God punishing or cleansing, because evil out of control; Genesis 6-8
Death penalty: So fear of God, sinning; Genesis 9; James 1:12-21; 2:10
Law: So sin confessed, sin and guilt, shame covered; sickness seen, cleansed; death for demonic practices (until Christ’s continual atonement…, grace and truth to set us free; John 1:14-17, 29
Law for those not responding….Romans 3:26; & 13:1-10
Reformed ideas about atonement were an improvement over the ideas that had devolved in the Catholic Church over centuries. Yet they did not resolve all of that devolution, nor do those ideas translate very well to contemporary humans with our contemporary languages and views of things.
We were told that we were free from lingering shame, and fear of divine condemnation by God's just payment for our sins. It was said, a just God demanded payment for sin, and that payment was made by God. This is actually not incorrect, but it is easily confusing. We ask, so, does God actually love us enough to forgive us, or not?
The more accurate and simpler way to express what divine atonement is is this. Whenever anyone forgives another they must sacrifice something to do so. If I stole $1000, dollars from you and spent it all, and you chose to forgive me, you would be sacrificing $1000 dollars to forgive me, to restore relationship with me. I would have to actually want to have a relationship with you for this forgiveness to mean anything. If I simply wanted to avoid your anger, but did not really care at all about you or having a good relationship with you, that gesture of forgiveness would be effectively cancelled out by me because the forgiveness was meant to restore relationship and I did not want that relationship.
The suffering of Jesus on the cross is the pain God feels when His creation fails to fully express who God is. Jesus, death was not a case of Jesus was willing to suffer, but God wasn't. Jesus was God showing us the price He has always been willing to pay to forgive us. God always loved us enough to forgive us. The progressive evolution of the imagery of atonement sacrifices from the lamb killed to cover Adam and Eve's new sense of nakedness, to Jesus' death on the cross all represent the fact that God completely loves us and was and is willing to forgive us completely.
God did not need Jesus to die on the cross in order to be able to forgive us. Jesus died on the cross to show us just how willing He is to forgive us. The reformers got that part slightly wrong. Of course, in a sense if the person forgiving is not really willing to make the sacrifice required to forgive another's debt, then their forgiveness is hollow. But God was not waiting for Jesus to die to be willing to forgive us. For God so loved the world that Gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have eternal life.
We really have needed the reformed theology updated badly. Thanks for being willing to do that for Jesus body, Paul
We also see later, David received grace, because he repented, got grace instead of law. We all die unless God takes some.
David refused to kill Saul, thé Lord’s anointed, and was given grace, as the Lord’s anointed, but still in those days killed GOD’s enemies, to preserve à faithful community. Without Christ’s atonement people are still susceptible to demons. Did Jesus make equal justice, patience in justice, outside war, appropriate?
Wow! My heart says, “These words are true.” But it’s a lot. I need to reread this a few times to unpack it.
Great concepts!